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  • Clementure
  • Member Since Aug 25th, 2006

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15 Minutes of Fame: Proudmoore guild plays out GLBT pride {WoW}

Oct 22nd 2008 7:11PM Wittg:
I can have children by many means, including adoption, surrogate mother, etc.

Clem:
Dude -- it still takes a man and a woman. True fact. Look it up. Thus, any other arrangement is not normal, and is an extension or perversion.

Wittg:
It's not a straw-man. See, you just defeated your own argument - if you can marry your own lamp under your religion and your not considered married unless sanctified by the state, then religion has nothing to do with marriage; thus, should not be spoken of when speaking about marriage, because marriage is only a state thing - it has nothing to do with religion.

Clem:
Based on that, you should be happy with a civil union. You got the only part of a marriage you’re interested in right there. The religion stuff is best left to those few oddballs that actually worship God the Father.

Wittg:
See the problem with the base of your argument is that it's built upon assumptions that ceremonial marriage is the same as legal marriage - people who do not pay attention closely to your arguments will fall into a pit where they feel torn between 'traditional' marriage (which has images of Church, bells, white wedding dresses, wedding cakes, ring bearers, etc. associated with it) and 'progressive marriage' (whatever a person finds 'evil'). I bring up the difference between ceremonial marriage and legal marriage because it hits the truth - ceremonial marriage is the pomp and ceremony (which gays already have) and legal marriage is the bureaucratic process of having legal rights as a married couple. Don't play coy by saying that your argument is not steeped in religion.

Clem:
I’m going to need some help with the above. You’re going around in logical circles, citing facts not in evidence, and clouding up the issue. Er, what is the issue? So, why do you want a ‘marriage’ when a civil union will do you?

Wittg:
Europe is not the United States - you will be allowed to go to churches that say gays suck. Just look at all the different churches now - we have churches built upon gays sucking, blacks sucking, Jews sucking, psychiatry sucking, God sucking, etc. America has a strong policy of allowing churches to say whatever they please.

Clem:
Not really. Churches cannot endorse political candidate from the pulpit. They can lose tax-exempt status if they do so. It starts there, it gets more PC, and before you know it some government agency tells you what you can say at your church. (This already happens with private property and the EPA.) Sorry, beyond any doubt, traditional marriage must be legally defined and protected.

Wittg:
America doesn't want to go to the right this election year, they want to go to the left.

Clem:
That could possibly be true. As for Palin, we can argue that some other time.

Wittg:
You don't know anything about economics, do you? It's called double income, no children, with higher paying jobs.

Clem:
Just the handful of courses I had to take for my undergrad degree. Funny enough, DINC was never a topic.

Wittg:
Gay people on average, tend to hold jobs that pay more than straight people (theorists believe this is because most gay people tend to want to live in an urban area, which tends to be more expensive to live in). Most gay couples have no children - this leads most gay couples to be a little more frivolous with their spending. Overall, gays are great for the economy - they are the perfect consumer, which if you do not know, is what America is built upon currently. Also, throughout the centuries, we have given society everything from art (see Oscar Wilde, Rimbaud, Basquiat, etc.) to truth tables (search Wittgenstein and truth tables, while your at it search everything that the very gay Wittgenstein did for the world) to Artificial intelligence (see Turing), etc. We have done more than our fare share of contributing to society.

Clem:
Medical research: Billions spend on AIDS research could have gone to cancer, Parkinsons, MD, and so on.
Voting:
Gays usually are liberal. They vote for tax-hiking politicians. Bad economies and lower paychecks for everyone result.
Medical costs:
Gays have riskier lifestyles, and cost more to treat. Strained medical systems have to raise costs on everything to keep up.
Insurance:
Insurance companies have to pick up the bill for AIDS and related problems. Rates go up for everyone.
Schools:
Rational gays will vote down school bonds and other school fundraising efforts. There’s no gain for them.
Money Hoarding (local economies):
Gays may shop more, but they acquire more in saving and funds they don’t spend. Straight people are investing in schools, local infrastructure, local businesses, houses, mortgages, and so on. Straights will invest/purchase hundreds of things/items that gays have no interest in.

Look at it this way: a gay couple vs a small family of 4. The small family will contribute far more to the local economy. Not only in dollars, but time (Boy Scouts, church, low-income workers, school band, car repair, food purchased and hundreds of other categories), School involvement, and so on. What I’m saying here is: a small family adds more to a community than a gay couple, and will for years, even generations.

Morality:
I’m willing to discuss this leaving religion out, for the most part. But this once: every major world religion condemns homosexuality.

WIttg:
I believe doublespeak is dangerous for American values - marriage should be called marriage. Why shouldn't it be called marriage if it is marriage?

Clem:
I still don’t understand why you want a marriage? (This is a fairly recent trend in gayness. As early as the 70’s, gays mocked marriage. ) Why do you want to mock traditional values?

Wttg:
What am I paying for? My sins? Please be specific - ambiguity and vagueness does nothing for my skin. Also, please prove how gay marriage is detrimental to society. Thanks.

For someone who brought up economics, you’re showing a shocking lack of knowledge. Opportunity Cost. Every major choice has an opportunity cost, which is the thing you lose when you choose. It appears to me you are trying to avoid the opportunity cost of your gay lifestyle.

It doesn’t work that way. There’s always an opportunity cost. You choose to be outside of normal, then pay the cost.


That's it for me. I'll try to check in later to see if you reponseded, Wtgg. Later!

15 Minutes of Fame: Proudmoore guild plays out GLBT pride {WoW}

Oct 22nd 2008 6:53PM Wittg:
I can have children by many means, including adoption, surrogate mother, etc.

Clem:
Dude -- it still takes a man and a woman. True fact. Look it up. Thus, any other arrangement is not normal, and is an extension or perversion.

Wittg:
It's not a straw-man. See, you just defeated your own argument - if you can marry your own lamp under your religion and your not considered married unless sanctified by the state, then religion has nothing to do with marriage; thus, should not be spoken of when speaking about marriage, because marriage is only a state thing - it has nothing to do with religion.

Clem:
Based on that, you should be happy with a civil union. You got the only part of a marriage you’re interested in right there. The religion stuff is best left to those few oddballs that actually worship God the Father.

Wittg:
See the problem with the base of your argument is that it's built upon assumptions that ceremonial marriage is the same as legal marriage - people who do not pay attention closely to your arguments will fall into a pit where they feel torn between 'traditional' marriage (which has images of Church, bells, white wedding dresses, wedding cakes, ring bearers, etc. associated with it) and 'progressive marriage' (whatever a person finds 'evil'). I bring up the difference between ceremonial marriage and legal marriage because it hits the truth - ceremonial marriage is the pomp and ceremony (which gays already have) and legal marriage is the bureaucratic process of having legal rights as a married couple. Don't play coy by saying that your argument is not steeped in religion.

Clem:
I’m going to need some help with the above. You’re going around in logical circles, citing facts not in evidence, and clouding up the issue. Er, what is the issue? So, why do you want a ‘marriage’ when a civil union will do you?

Wittg:
Europe is not the United States - you will be allowed to go to churches that say gays suck. Just look at all the different churches now - we have churches built upon gays sucking, blacks sucking, Jews sucking, psychiatry sucking, God sucking, etc. America has a strong policy of allowing churches to say whatever they please.

Clem:
Not really. Churches cannot endorse political candidate from the pulpit. They can lose tax-exempt status if they do so. It starts there, it gets more PC, and before you know it some government agency tells you what you can say at your church. (This already happens with private property and the EPA.) Sorry, beyond any doubt, traditional marriage must be legally defined and protected.

Wittg:
America doesn't want to go to the right this election year, they want to go to the left.

Clem:
That could possibly be true. As for Palin, we can argue that some other time.

Wittg:
You don't know anything about economics, do you? It's called double income, no children, with higher paying jobs.

Clem:
Just the handful of courses I had to take for my undergrad degree. Funny enough, DINC was never a topic.

Wittg:
Gay people on average, tend to hold jobs that pay more than straight people (theorists believe this is because most gay people tend to want to live in an urban area, which tends to be more expensive to live in). Most gay couples have no children - this leads most gay couples to be a little more frivolous with their spending. Overall, gays are great for the economy - they are the perfect consumer, which if you do not know, is what America is built upon currently. Also, throughout the centuries, we have given society everything from art (see Oscar Wilde, Rimbaud, Basquiat, etc.) to truth tables (search Wittgenstein and truth tables, while your at it search everything that the very gay Wittgenstein did for the world) to Artificial intelligence (see Turing), etc. We have done more than our fare share of contributing to society.

Clem:
Medical research: Billions spend on AIDS research could have gone to cancer, Parkinsons, MD, and so on.
Voting:
Gays usually are liberal. They vote for tax-hiking politicians. Bad economies and lower paychecks for everyone result.
Medical costs:
Gays have riskier lifestyles, and cost more to treat. Strained medical systems have to raise costs on everything to keep up.
Insurance:
Insurance companies have to pick up the bill for AIDS and related problems. Rates go up for everyone.
Schools:
Rational gays will vote down school bonds and other school fundraising efforts. There’s no gain for them.
Money Hoarding (local economies):
Gays may shop more, but they acquire more in saving and funds they don’t spend. Straight people are investing in schools, local infrastructure, local businesses, houses, mortgages, and so on. Straights will invest/purchase hundreds of things/items that gays have no interest in.

Look at it this way: a gay couple vs a small family of 4. The small family will contribute far more to the local economy. Not only in dollars, but time (Boy Scouts, church, low-income workers, school band, car repair, food purchased and hundreds of other categories), School involvement, and so on. What I’m saying here is: a small family adds more to a community than a gay couple, and will for years, even generations.

Morality:
I’m willing to discuss this leaving religion out, for the most part. But this once: every major world religion condemns homosexuality.

WIttg:
I believe doublespeak is dangerous for American values - marriage should be called marriage. Why shouldn't it be called marriage if it is marriage?

Clem:
I still don’t understand why you want a marriage? (This is a fairly recent trend in gayness. As early as the 70’s, gays mocked marriage. ) Why do you want to mock traditional values?

Wttg:
What am I paying for? My sins? Please be specific - ambiguity and vagueness does nothing for my skin. Also, please prove how gay marriage is detrimental to society. Thanks.

For someone who brought up economics, you’re showing a shocking lack of knowledge. Opportunity Cost. Every major choice has an opportunity cost, which is the thing you lose when you choose. It appears to me you are trying to avoid the opportunity cost of your gay lifestyle.

It doesn’t work that way. There’s always an opportunity cost. You choose to be outside of normal, then pay the cost.

15 Minutes of Fame: Proudmoore guild plays out GLBT pride {WoW}

Oct 22nd 2008 4:52PM Wittg:
Let's get back to your post. With these issues, there comes all these loaded terms like, 'acceptance,' 'tolerance,' 'condoning,' etc. What gay people usually mean by tolerance is not what you mean by tolerance - gay people don't want to be tolerated in your sense, we want to exist just like any normal American; we want to go to school, get married, possibly have children, and do what normal Americans do. Our idea of tolerance is about trying to be normal, your idea of tolerance is allowing something different to exist but only under certain conditions.

Clem:
Hmmm, thanks for telling me how I’m tolerant. Gay people can already go to school. How in the world do you expect to have children? That’s impossible. You must rely on a breeder to accomplish such a thing. Hence, to obtain your normality you require a three person sexual arrangement. There’s nothing normal about that. So why, since your union cannot produce children, do you want to call it marriage? You could call it ‘Floaty’ or ‘Pedal’ with equal accuracy.

Wittg:
What's interesting in your post is the false correlation between state-sanctioned marriage and religion. Believe it or not, gay people are getting married everyday and have been for decades - not through the state, but through, that's right, churches. See, there are two types of marriages - the ceremony and the legal process. For instance, my friend Jen got married last year and got legally married to her husband 8 months before her ceremony so she can benefit from his health insurance - guess which dates she considers her real marriage date?

Clem:
Strawman alert! It’s not a marriage without the state sanction. I could marry my lamp by my religion, but that won’t make it a real marriage.

Wittg:
Now, keeping in mind the difference between ceremony(at the church) and legal marriage (at the court), why would "Over time, greater acceptance of nontraditional marriage will be demanded of all people. This could impact the ability of any religion to teach and practice its beliefs." be a weak argument to make? Well, ceremonial gay marriage has been going on with or without state interference for decades and has never deterred people to be against it. Legal Gay marriage will not impact any religions right to say anything it pleases just like the state has never interfered in churches allowing gays to marry over the last few decades. I would also like to mention the lack of evidence you provided backing up all three propositions that I quoted from you.

Clem:
In Europe, biblical teachings against homosexuality are being call ‘hate speech’. In other words, people practicing their centuries old religious beliefs run the risk of criminal accusations from the state. That, my friend, is a threat. This will come to the US sooner or later. Legal protection of traditional marriage is needed.

Wittg:
I also love the last line in the little diatribe, "Society will become more and more hostile to traditional beliefs about marriage and family."

Clem:
Which has already happened. Witness the ‘anal exam via sledgehammer’ administered to Sarah Palin in this political season, all because elites were offended by her traditional family choices.

Wittg:
The reality of this whole scene is that you are more hostile to traditional beliefs about marriage and family by not allowing access to more American families that help America function in a healthy way and contribute in so many ways to society.

Clem:
Gay ‘families’ don’t really contribute anything to society. They are an overall minus. Sorry.

Wittg:
I feel, as a gay man, that when you say that I can't have the same benefits as you, that you think I am less of an American, which I am not. My existence is not a detriment to society by my mere existence.

Clem:
I believe that if legal arrangements were available to gay people that were akin to marriage, that would be the protection you needed.

Now, you have to pay a price for your choices. Drunks pay a price for drinking. Thieves pay a price for stealing. Religious people pay the price of being mocked and ostracized by elite opinion makers. Drug users pay the price if they use a dirty needle. And so on.

Why should you NOT pay the price?





15 Minutes of Fame: Proudmoore guild plays out GLBT pride {WoW}

Oct 22nd 2008 3:27PM Hey, I've been voted gray. Wow, a 'concerted effort' indeed. It does appear that the Gay Blades have taken over WOW Insider.

Here's my take on Gay marriage, from a Prop 8 site:

Having tolerance without condoning.

We can love someone while still maintaining and advocating our standards and beliefs.

Unless Proposition 8 passes, California society will soon undergo a profound change in its basic understanding of marriage and family life.

That will affect everyone in numerous ways. Over time, greater acceptance of nontraditional marriage will be demanded of all people. This could impact the ability of any religion to teach and practice its beliefs.

Proposition 8 will not hurt gays and lesbians.

In California, the law provides for marriage-related benefits to be given to civil unions and domestic partnerships. Proposition 8 does not diminish these benefits. Failure to pass Proposition 8 will hurt children.
If same-sex marriage remains legal, public schools will put it on equal footing with traditional marriage. Children will likely receive “age appropriate” information about sexual relations within heterosexual and homosexual marriages.

Failure to pass Proposition 8 will hurt churches.

The court’s decision will inevitably lead to conflicts with religious liberty and free speech rights. Society will become more and more hostile to traditional beliefs about marriage and family.

15 Minutes of Fame: Proudmoore guild plays out GLBT pride {WoW}

Oct 22nd 2008 1:18PM I know I love you Mero!

15 Minutes of Fame: Proudmoore guild plays out GLBT pride {WoW}

Oct 22nd 2008 12:49PM Holy cow, did this article provoke an organized response or what? It appears that some gay folks somewhere got their panties all bunched up and came here in droves to enlighten us breeders.

Well, take this for enlightenment: call it what you want, describe it how you want, do whatever the hell you want; it won’t change the fact that gay marriage and gay behavior are detrimental to society.

Breakfast Topic: Honorary wipe {WoW}

Oct 1st 2008 6:20PM When I was 15, I worked hard all summer to save up for a car. When I turned 16, I was ready to go out and buy my car. Then my daddy (big daddy blizzard) said that since the other kids turning 16 couldn’t get a car, I couldn’t either. Then he took my money!

The above is about how sensible and fair the honor wipe was. They changed it. Good for them. Players will still have to play arena to spend honor points on gear.

No thanks. I’m sticking with Warhammer. Nerf that crapfest arena, then I’ll come back.

Forum post of the day: Honor, glory, and coercion {WoW}

Sep 26th 2008 12:58PM Just damn, Skippy. Perhaps I should be able to play the game as I want? Skipping content is not a bad thing.

Forum post of the day: Honor, glory, and coercion {WoW}

Sep 26th 2008 10:41AM “I think they should either keep the arena requirements or dramatically raise the bg requirements. You shouldn't be able to just stand in a battleground for a day and never cast a spell once and then go get t6 equivalent gear for it.”

Look: you can get away with that in AV. In the other battlegrounds, you cannot. If you AKF in AB, WSG, or EOTS you are easy to spot, and will be reported.

This idea that you can afk your way to S2 is just not true. You need a combination of all 4 BGs tokens to get all the S2 and Guardian gear. You can spend something like 200,000 honor to get all that.

There is no way possible to afk to all of that. It simply cannot be done. Those who are in the “BS PVP” gear have spent a lot of time and effort to get it. Kind of like raiding. It is somewhat easier (and cheaper) than raiding, but still requiring a huge investment (for gear that is inferior to raiding or arena gear).

Honor points and marks reset in WotLK {WoW}

Sep 23rd 2008 9:32PM I have 70K honor on my Drood, and 20K honor on my Lock, and tons of marks on both of them. Also, I am a casual player, I will be hitting 80 after thousands of players on my server. The new PVP gear is going to cost honor and arena points to acquire. Finally, I hate arena, but I play the BGs for fun (never have afk’ed, not once).

In the Wrath expansion pack, my play style and my enjoyment of the game is being royally screwed.

So, what do you guys think of Warhammer? Has anyone given it a good try?