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Apr 2nd 2012 11:05AM @VikingGamer
This and especially this. Here is something a lot of you are just not understanding. In World of Warcraft, if you are harassed, you can ignore the player. In most games, you can ignore the player.
In eve, no harassment comes chat. It's from being hunted down and destroyed. People can't just casually 'chat' with you, you have to allow direct conversations. But here's the real kicker. The Goon PR machine is massive. This is why they have grown in size so fast, and hold so much sway. The best thing about leading a group of blood'n'tear thirsty maniacs is they will follow the leader to a T. Your average eve player, however, is just that. There's no massive anti-goon alliance.
On top of all this, they've shifted public perception for eve to be this evil, cold dark place. They have made sure all the standard in-game newbie help is horrible, and try to troll the standard forums as hard as possible. This is why you see such a stark difference in eve players.
So, please, condemn those that need condemned, but do not condemn the entire population. We're fighting to get new players and grow the community, but that PR machine is really, really hard to fight against when so many buy into it.
Mar 29th 2012 9:13PM @Space Cobra
This is why facts must be simple. You are applying emotion to the facts, and skewing them. This does not make you wrong. I speak more from experience of knowing my enemy. And this enemy, I know. Since you left it in the same format, let's keep it that way. Also, an edit button would indeed be great some day. Chrome catches spelling, just not grammar.
1) I didn't say whether they could be or not. They could be sincere or a political ploy. In EVE though, we know it doesn't matter. More on that in a later one.
2) This was more to showcase what the expected behavior was. He tried to be 'above the fray', and was ridiculed for it. We in eve know what is more dangerous than the goons is the goons ego, especially the head goon.
3) Actually, my point is indeed the public perception. This point is one of those cases is the major nullsec alliances actually are that face that gets put on eve. All of the Alliance null-sec were very, very borderline, called names, insulted and ridiculed people. Only one stepped over the line, and as this is a cold and calculating individual, it's a good bet he stepped over only to feed his ego and 'one up' the others. That said, going over transcripts, it wasn't hard to one-up the others with what he said.
4) Again, expected behavior. A good analogy here to make the example is going to a sports bar and showing up as the one person wearing the other teams jersey. You go to the bar expecting to watch the game and have fun, and soon find out you are in for a night of ridicule. Bar owner can't really do much. Same here with CCP. I suspect the 30-day ban is more actually to showcase The Mittani, and detract from all the other comments maid on the alliance panel. He makes a great fall guy to distract away from the nullsec behavior.
5) On the contrary, I think this will help CCP. This is almost what they have been waiting for. A full on goon invasion to Jita gives them the perfect ability to respond in-game and show the players that no matter how big an alliance gets, ego or otherwise, CONCORD will win. I would invite everyone to watch what happens that day with a front row seat at Jita. Never issue an ultimatum to game developers, they like that because they control the rules.
6) While true, this year FanFest was unique in the Sony representation. Again, though, it could all work to their benefit. If you live in eve, you know the big problem with eve is it's perception, only followed at a distant second by it's UI. Sony dollars lets them swing a wider bat, and they have actively worked against goons in the past with the BoB scandals. The only ones truly more calculating than The Mittany is the EVE devs.
7) Ah, you think I'm standing up for it. No, no, I merely enjoy a heated debate. I just saw many EVE players leaving out facts that need to be in place to set the tone for the EVE player responses. As freaky as it may sound...well, I'll leave that to the end, it might be a bit enlightening about what game EVE really is.
8) He actually makes it a very, very big point in what he does that he is very, very rarely in game. My earlier point stands, he is their General. He gets his rocks off on victories. He is the planner, the strategist. I know the type well because I am the same type. This is why he does out of game attacks, because with a single one he does more damage in game than any titan has ever done. He's toppled stations, ruined characters, and removed accounts off the face of eve. That's not something you can do if you stay in game all the time. He's also not playing the same game I am, nor the same game most the goons are even playing.
There is this great perception out there about eve players. Allow me to dispel that. I'm not even talking about the griefers perception.
Believe it or not, your average eve player is a high-sec player. They enjoy missioning, the occasional incusrion, perhaps some market speculation and trading. They exist in a small corp of people they have met and enjoyed playing with. Perhaps every once in a while they get really adventurous and war-dec another corp! (That they usually talk to ahead of time about it and it's basically just a BG to the game)
In truth, they live in their own little bubble. Many first hear of the goons in local chat, or through a friend that doesn't play. They hear 'Your game is full of griefers!', and you try to recall the last time you were popped in highsec that wasn't you being dumb (Can-flipping), and you can't recall it. I myself have been a avid miner for years, jumping corp to corp, never staying one place long, usually renting out my refining services. Most don't even really understand what a war-dec is, much less what goes on in 0.0.
They really are two games, with a giant wall in the middle known as low-sec (only 7% of the population 'lives' here, and these are truly the lowest of low. Many players have their first true pod-kill death there.) and it actually has a massive 'DO NOT ENTER' sign when you look at 'Kills over 24 hours'. Many players learn this the hard way, and most when they first run into it leave if they haven't made friends yet.
Eve is, in all actuallity, Six single worlds. Each world really has almost no idea on the common-folk level the other exists.
Wormhole Land - Players know corps live there, but no idea why or for what reason. Most will never enter one uncloaked.
NullSec Land - Lawless land of gankers and griefers. You can rent space for a month or two to make lots fast, but you know what you are getting into. Most will stay out
LowSec Land - Also known as where ships go to die. Less-safe than null-sec. The first advice you usually get is how to set your route-settings so you never get taken through low-sec
Nowhere land - You find a system and just stay, never really leaving. May be the actual silent majority in eve, but data has never been brought forth as to how many active accounts make home and never leave.
Trade Hubs - The last two lands, each with their own flavor. Jita is Jita. It's the Ogrimmar of trade hubs. So many people there, that's where the scammers love to be. The other four trade hubs are only 1/4 as active, but this is where those of us that want to play ships in space usually stay around at. Plenty of Corps, Mining, and while the occasional griefer shows up, it's rare as we are quite far from goon action.
Folks from the game that the last two worlds encompass are the ones coming here going 'What? The perception is way off!'. They get defensive because someone they probably have never heard or cared about is making the game they love look bad. This is probably the game that the massively guy that made a 'Why I play eve' article seems out of touch. Most of us are very out of touch with Null/Worm/Low alliances. The ones coming and saying you are all wimps and need to man up and play eve, well, at this point I hope you don't have to guess where they come from.
The main point in my opinion part is this. It's all far too convenient timing on all parts. This wreaks of what in america we would call 'An October surprise'. We HighSec players see this for what it really is. The loudest voice in NullSec has called out CCP, spat in it's face, and is beating it's chest. They believe themselves the lifeblood of EVE. We know the 30-day ban wasn't a slap on the wrist, it was a slap in the face. It was a 'Bring it.' by CCP. They don't want to make a martyr out of him, they want to humiliate and beat his alliance into the ground with everyone watching. Could they take in-game action against a CSM Chairman who 'championed' the people in CSM6? Not likely. Could they take action against an alliance lead by a perma-banned character? Maybe but you'd be taking on the equivilent of a anti-hero ascended to god-hood.
Can you take action against someone who publicly defaced the entire population, says CCP threw him under the bus, and prepares a campaign to circumvent death mechanics by using numbers to disrupt the 'beating heart of high-sec'? Abso-friggin-lutely. While the drama is far from over, every eve player knows the best is truly yet to come.
Final note: Quite a good debate so far SpaceCobra, which is my intent. I'm not looking to berate or anger, just understand. I'm one of those from the non Low/Null/Worm EVE. To us, getting griefed is akin to someone training 20 mobs on you when you heal or AoE, it happens, you ignore it and move on. We don't understand the comments of the posters giving negative reviews of a game that we just don't see. You actually seem like you'd be very interesting to have an actual conversation about this over, since in truth at the heart of this, we believe the same thing, that this situation is wrong, we just see it from different perspectives.
Mar 29th 2012 3:56PM @Lenn
Fact 1 - has been proven and confirmed by The Wiz.
Fact 2 - can easily be confirmed by asking any attendee or any transcription, he only have a history of the goons, not a telling of victories.
Fact 3 - While not exactly a fact, the actual videos posted on the gaming news sites show only his clip, not the full, very long panel. It is a valid question.
Fact 4 - From the brochure - "ALLIANCE LEADER PANEL
Hear directly from representatives of the major powers
currently active in New Eden – where they are headed
and why they are doing it" - Also note, if you ever watch it, the amount of alcohol on the table.
Fact 5 - Is conjecture based in past behavior, so fact, no, but possibility yes. I do agree though, should have gone at the bottom. Makes it no less important though.
Fact 6 - Nor should WoW have live-streamed the controversial things it did last blizzcon. This event was not properly vetted for the audience it would hit.
Fact 7 - Those numbers are exact per CCP on Active accounts. https://p.twimg.com/Ajc6KNBCQAAT9my.png was posted by a CCP Dev via Twitter very recently.
So sorry, a single fact was conjecture. Not three however.
Mar 29th 2012 3:18PM Few facts for people to roll around in, since we need some right now.
Fact - Apology, 10 billion ISK in reperations, and a comment from the pilot in question saying it wasn't actually a big deal.
Fact - Last year, his Alliance panel address was sober, and considered 'dull' for being so.
Fact - People reportedly saying 'I watched the video', did you watch the entire panel? Past panels?
Fact - The alliance panel is put forth as a boasting platform, players are encouraged to be their persona and not the player, giving glorious recounts of the years history. That 'The Mittani' and not Alex showed up to speak should be noted, for good or bad.
Fact - Sadly, this could all be a big ploy created by the goons to rile up and troll the entire game society. Odd that this becomes a platform to 'right' his reputation with the goons.
Fact - CCP should not have live-streamed the alliance panel.
Fact - 28% of the population live in null-sec or low-sec, where The Mittani and his ilk thrive. 67% live in high-sec. This shows easily why there are such start comment differences. People in HighSec that know where not to go rarely, if ever, get ganked. People in NullSec rarely, if ever get ganked due to alliance presence and muscle to back them up. Both sides know low-sec gets you killed, and near low sec gets you killed, this is where most new players accidentally venture to that gets them ganked.
Final Fact - The Mittani actually rarely, if ever, logs into the game. A ban does nothing as they already moved CEO approval to be done another way, so he could get banned and still the corp moves forward. 30 days or Life is the same to someone who doesn't need to play to be effective. You are trying to ban the general from the battlefield that he won't be on anyway.
My opinion here is that if we judge all eve players off The Mittani, we are calling all wow players hardcore raiders. Also, The Mittani is first and foremost a politician. There will never be a way of knowing what is true or sincere, or if the entire situation was fabricated as a way to mobilize his base and save face with the goons. Turn this into another thing commonly put in front by media. A Politician saying 'ban/approve gay marriage', inciting chaos and vitriole amongst his apponents while riling up his base. Poliiticans do this with hot button issues all the time. Suicide/Cyber bullying is a massive one, people being surprised means they are discounting just how politically astute The Mittani Is.
Mar 28th 2012 2:40PM Woah, where to even begin. I think the major misconception happening here is just a matter of how one thing relates to another. First off, I've been playing EVE a while now, and I am part of the backbone of the game. Yep, I'm a miner. And a solo miner at that. In my four years of playing, I have never lost a ship outside tutorial missions but twice, on only pod-killed one of those times. The lost ship was a consensual pvp fight. The second, I decided it would be a good idea to auto-pilot through a 24 jump path and didn't notice the .4 sector in the path.
First, let's talk about losing ships. Most consider this unnacceptable. However, play eve for the whole set of tutorials, and this etched into your gameplay, as even the tutorial has you purposely blow up ships. Here is where the misconception lies though, your ship is 'not' your character, and only barely your 'gear'. Your ship is your gear no more than your gold in WoW is your gear. In EVE, your 'Gear' is your Skill points. The close system basically makes it where losing your Skill Points, or 'Gear', is impossible. You only incur the 'repair cost' of a clone, which goes up as you get more skill. Just like your gold cost goes up when you get higher level gear. It takes a long time to get the best gear, and not everyone is in full heroic gear 'See, Super Cap'. However, unlike WoW, smaller ships such as cruisers, especially logistic ships, can actually assist and be driving forces in combat.
So, if Ships are not your gear, what are they? Nothing more than currency. In a world where a few 10-million ISK ship can obliterate a 1.5 billion isk ship even in high security, it quickly becomes apparent that the expense of your ship does not matter. However, there is insurance. If you really are worried about your ship, you can indeed insure it. While it may not cover all of the cost, it will cover a decent amount as long as it is a tech one ship. Ships in EVE could also basically be considered something like hunter pets in WoW as well. A common mistake made is people will sell their old ship when they get a new one. There is no penalty in keeping extra around. Infact, having a backup ship to go and pickup your wreck can be the best investment in the game.
Sorry folks, griefing happens. There you are, mining a prime spot and some idiot brings a pack of mobs by and the aoe hits you, you heal some, he feigns, you die. Oh, wait, weren't we talking about eve? Most the times you find someone griefed, they helped make themself a nice juicy target. One thing to learn really fast is you can be targetted and scanned, allowing someone to see what is on and in your ship in seconds and you won't even be aware. If you are carrying billions in modifications in a ship that does not have the muscle to back it up, expect to get ganked by pirates. Escorts and Jump Freighters are your friends here, but this leads into the largest misconception of EVE.
One Million ISK is a lot. One Billion ISK is a lot. One Trillion ISK is alot.
I see many, many posts saying 'for trivial profits', or 'for a minuscule amount'. ISK in this regard is more like experience points you spend, less like currency. This is as bad a misconception as 'winning' an MMO. You can't win an MMO. In the game, you earn isk at an increasing pace. This pace is there for a reason. By the end of the tutorials, you should have around 5-10 million, depending. That's usually enough to buy either a good low end cruiser and the books needed, or fit out a very top end T1 frigate. Both can do level one missions with no issue. If you intend to stay in frigates, then you simply continue to train your 'small weapon' skills. If you intend to go up and up, train your non-turret skills and keep enough turret skills for what you fly. Usually, the main tutorial leads you into the sisters of eve storlyline mission. This is the Big Big mission. Most players will purchase their first cruiser through this mission. Most will lose their first real ships in this mission. You will likely see a large amount of eve on this mission as well.
Last, but not least, the Goons. Guess what? They are easily avoidable. In a game like WoW, they are not. If someone wants to annoy you, follow you around, speed skin your kills, and /emote at you all day long, all you can do is ignore and report, but it probably won't stop them for hours. In EVE, one of three things happen. They attempt to grief you, fail, and get popped by concord. They attempt to grief you and succeed, making you use a backup ship or buy a new one (Buying a ship on the spot is always over-expensive, again, after you have a new ship, slowly buy a second one setup the same way. Raiders do this with multiple characters in case of bad patches). Or, they 'flag' themselves against you, you tell your corp, and a pvp-fit drake pops in, swats the griefer like the gnat he is, thanks you for the killmail, and pops back to what he was doing. Oddly enough, the third option is what happens a lot. If you stick around in your newbie corp, or in a personal corp, when you are an easy target. When they see a corp name that has a large alliance, they think twice because that means they are going to not be able to play for a bit if they do indeed flag vs you.
If you are the one who gets griefed in a newbie corp or a personal corp, or war declare camped in a personal corp, you made yourself a target and are no better then the person who levels purely through dungeons alone and complains when they cannot get into raids at 85. Get a corp. If you play the game never having joined a player corp, then you haven't really played the game now, have you?
Jan 18th 2012 12:01PM I think the defacto 'Holy Radiance + Light of Dawn, Lol top meters' is a bit unfair.
When you consider all the fights in DS, think about it logically.
Morchok - Tank damage can be equal to melee damage, AoE hitting Melee + tank viable to tank heal
Zanozz - Group up phase all healers AoE heal.
Yorshaj - Many times where AoE healing when everyone is packed can keep tank up as well.
Hagara - Tank healer basically gets most of the healable damage, and if the tank is good he can assist even with raid damage
Ultraxion - Constant AoE, even the 'tank healer' can become an AoE machine. Later half of the fight, so much AoE healing is present tank-healing paladin can just AoE heal. (Hence pallies scream bloody murder if they don't get blue)
Blackhorn - Lot of times you stack up to heal, tank damage only picks up at end of fight.
Spine and Madness - Definately more raid-heal heavy.
As you can see, these days, just saying 'I'm a tank healer' isn't what it used to be in wrath. In wrath, you healed the tank and yourself and didn't stop. Now, you are expected to pitch in for AoE. That's why a lot of guilds are 2-healing most of DS, is because so many classes can actually succeed at both. The world of cut and dry tank/raid healing has been gone for a while now. Many fights leading up to now were the same, It's just that now paladins were given AoE tools to handle them bringing them up to that level.
Personally, I believe some of the gap between healers is still skill based. Paladin healers have always had to force themselves to be very mana aware ('infinite' is a generalization. That blue bar does move, and somtimes like a see-saw where missing one swing and you're done. It's a rhythm). They also are generally the largest subscriber to the ABC's of healing. (Always Be Casting) Alternately, shaman has been changed every patch or so, priests have two healing specs. It's no wonder that the two classes that have had the least impacting changes, therefore most practice at what they do, are towards the top.
tl:dr Holy Paladins have an easier time at the top because of few changes and a spell they can treat exactly like divine light, making life easy since they have not changed tons.
Jan 3rd 2012 11:05AM As the RestoSham dev over at Rawr, this year is definatley looking up with their changes so far. New model developement is going good, and so far the baseline talents appear to be what we'd expect them to be. On top of that, the utility talents seem to be decent, well, at least half of them.
I'm personally waiting to see how the mana changes come about, those are the changes I feel will hit us the most, especially if they keep a primary part of our mana regen from critical healing spells.
Dec 22nd 2011 9:25AM I never understand this outlook. How is it everyone suddenly believes that every Blood Knight suddenly becomes a simpering human paladin that is all 'Light is Awesome and Good, LOL!'? That's not how a lot of people I know took it, and it's an RP server so they actually worry about this stuff.
The reaction of Liadrin finding out Mu'ru was a willing sacrifice was not a 'We are so sorry', it was more of a p'd off 'What?!'. So, we find out that the one thing that our people used that wasn't fel tainted was actualy helping us was removed forcibly from us? That's not a moment of 'awww', that's when it becomes a battle cry. Mu'ru, for all intents and purposes, is the Alamo of the Blood Knights of sorts as far as importance and a battle cry.
Also, look at the blood elf story. The light went out of it's way to save our people. Really, the only thing finding out the light wasn't our enemy did was remove most of the hatred for the light, which was always a secondary thing to the duty to our people. Now, we can focus on the duty to our people and not waste time forcing what's now given.
So remember, just because we are 'redeemed' doesn't mean we're pansies. That's your own projections. Lore basically has stood still in all the BC places, with only a brief bit of interaction in the Quel'delar quest. So, no, we don't really know what happened after the sunwell events as they are not in game yet, but saying we're going to turn into sniveling paladins is just absurd, there isn't any lore even remotely pointing to that.
tl:dr Saying blood elves turn into simpering light-pansies is like saying the tauren don't care about nature now that they have sunwalkers.
Dec 12th 2011 12:08PM @Edy
This always depresses me to see. It's like calling all liberals evil, or all conservatives evil. What you have a problem with is the vocal minority of raiding guilds. Please understand the 'hardcore' are not the majority, and I used quotes because typically, these are guilds with 75% progression raiders (the REAL hardcore), and 25% raiders who are good but complete human filth. They take them because of your very mindset, that all hardcore are elite so they accept it.
When, in reality, most of the REAL hardcore guilds out there, progression raiding guilds, not only are devoid of this filth, we constantly clean our boots off of it from the kicking.
Call them what they really are. Human filth, or any other colorful term you prefer. Usually when you find 'serious' guilds that don't accept members, those 25% have made it into officer ranks. As a raid lead in a progression raiding guild, we are always looking for good players, and never turn down potential apps.
Dec 9th 2011 2:27PM Remember, there are 2 gem clusters. The one with tokens off the first four bosses have a chance at uncommon and rares, however tokens off the last 4 I believe are either 100% epic gem or extremley high.
Note, basically, if you have the gear and skill to get the gear, then you are probably going for HC's soon, and working at BiS and min-maxing, which like epic gems have ALWAYS been, marginal upgrades for the rest of us.
When your only upgrades are epic gems and not gear, then you worry about epic gems. Otherwise, again, like evey other tier, you use rares till you have a piece you aren't replacing till NEXT tier.