Mar 7th 2008 6:17AM Hey. I'm the warrior that made that thread. First off I want to apologize for how poorly composed it was. I never expected to get so many replies much less be featured on a prominent WoW news website. It was a quikcly written reply in another thread on the general forums accusing warriors of being bad players who would rather dps than tank because we suck. I dumbed it down for people to understand it better and I just wanted to get my thoughts down in words. I then copy pasted that response into a brand new thread so more people would read it.
Anyway, let me first say that I'm an extremely experienced warrior in both pve and pvp and understand my class inside and out. I've been playing for almost 3 years and I know when something is broken with my class. I raided all the way up to Naxx pre-expansion as a dw fury warrior and all the way up to Hyjal in TBC. I quit raiding for a few months and my old guild has since went on to kill Illidan. I also tanked hundreds of 5 mans with all kinds of specs. I've also main tanked most of the 40 man raid content and kara with a non-prot spec as well. And of course I've -tried- to tank the new 5 mans in TBC. I also had 2200+ arena ratings for both S1 and S2 on BG6. So I'm no noobie.
Now let me say that I -was- able to tank dozens of heroics with my pvp spec. But that's because I'm wearing T5 tank gear and I have a lot of experience with tanking in that spec. But it was definitely a huge nuisance for the group and a ton of deaths could have been preventable. It's also next to impossible to even get your foot in the door with a non-prot spec because the WoW community as a whole has realized the same reality I have. And that is that Arms / Fury tanking is broken. Our threat is horrible and our mitigation can also be a problem for several heroic bosses and trash mob pulls after the armor nerf.
It just isn't a noob or pug friendly spec anymore. When an Arms / Fury warrior is tanking his TPS (threat per second) will be abysmal. Which means even a healer can sometimes pull aggro. It forces everyone in the group to watch their threat meter like a hawk on every single pull and they bascally have to dps at half steam or else they just ripped aggro off me. This basically results in a spam taunt situation. Basically I tank by spamming taunt every 10 seconds because I'm constantly losing aggro. It's very annoying for me and the group.
Now I know you'll say "So? That's how it should be. If you want to tank spec prot. You shouldn't be able to tank as well as someone who's tank spec. Duh..." Well personally I believe that any spec warrior should be a viable 5 man tank or endgame off tank. We're warriors. Every warrior should be able to tank decently reguardless of their spec. And we had confromation from the lead devs that they agree. They said they wanted non-prot warriors to be the "baseline tanks". And went on to say that they were aware of the problem and were going to work on fixing it. Hence the buffs to tactical mastery in Zul Aman patch. Which didn't fix the problem by the way due to the high rage cost of using mortal strike or bloodthirst while tanking 5 mans.
Putting aside the argument of whether or not it's fair for any spec warrior to be a decent tank I was trying to make another point. The issue wasn't really over whether or not it was fair, but how do we fix this horrible lack of tanks problem? The fact is Arms / Fury warriors tanked 95% of your 5 man groups before the expansion. We were perfectly capable of tanking them just fine and there were tons of us running around making it super easy to find a tank. People were happy. Both the warriors and the other classes.
Now that Arms / Fury warriors are no longer viable 5 man tanks in the expansion the result is obvious to everyone. Nobody can find tanks anymore. I was trying to make the point that the devs are taking the wrong track on how to fix this problem. They seem to be simply ignoring this issue and have decided that they're going to fix it in the next expansion by adding another tank hybrid class, death knights. I'm trying to point out that I don't think that's going to solve the problem or that it's even the best solution.
The devs already added 2 new tanking classes in TBC, druids and paladins. Yet we went from having an abundance of tanks to an epidemic shortage. Therefore simply adding yet another tanking class won't solve this problem. The best solution is to simply make Arms / Fury warriors viable tanks again. There's tons of us. And I can tell you from personal experience that ~I want to tank your 5 mans~. I really do. The new badge loot is super nice and I really want to get those new gems.
The lack of tanks has nothing to do with arena, nothing to do with crappy 5 man pugs or whatever else people bring up. Atleast speaking for myself it's simply too much of a hassle to tank with this spec and people avoid me like the plague anyway when making their heroic groups. I had to lie to get in 5 man groups and say I was prot. Which created some interesting problems after people were allowed to see your spec in your character window.
There's a couple solutions. Sunder armor simply needs a threat boost. I don't know exactly what happened from level 60 to evel 61 and above but Arms / Fury warrior threat simply stopped being viable for 5 man tanking. I dunno if it's due to sunder threat not scaling like it should have or other classes dps going through the roof with new talents and extra talent points. Or a combination of both. Either way it's a reality and it was very noticable.
The other solution which you also mentioned is free respecs. Now I know people have a strange obsession with keeping respec fees and the devs also share those views. But the reality is it makes it much harder to find healers and tanks for your 5 mans and it also pigeon holes people into one aspect of the game. Some people only do pvp or only do pve because they can't afford to respec 10 times a week. That's just my opinion on the respec debate. Me personally I don't tank as much because respec fees are too expensive. You never know when somebody will ask you to join a heroic group or when your arena team members will log on so you can't plan your gaming experience like clock work.
Anyway, thanks for giving my thread some attention even if you disagreed with my opinions :)
Nov 13th 2007 11:52AM I can't believe the devs actually have the nerve to say "Wait until the next expansion. Maybe we'll do something about it then. Maybe we won't. We'll see." What a joke.
They made it so we have to spec prot to even tank 5 mans now, they won't help prot warriors solo grind, only one of our trees is viable for pvp, and they won't give us free respes so we can participate in the different aspects of the game. This game is broken for the warrior class currently.
Nov 12th 2007 9:36AM I look forward to getting violated by every healing class with their welfare spell damage.
Can't believe the devs are letting that go live. Most imbalanced change to pvp ever.
Nov 11th 2007 7:58AM Great colum and you're the best writer on the site. Very impressed. I don't agree that pvp gear is easier to get or the fastest way to get gear. I'm on a 2000+ rated 5v5 team and in a BT guild. So I'm getting 1k+ arena points a week. I still get gear much faster from raiding. It might not always be the gear I'm looking for but it's purple and a nice upgrade. I've probably picked up about 20 epics in a few weeks of raiding alone. Whereas it took me 2 months to get my S1 axe after the start of the first season and I didn't get 5/5 S1 gear until the 3rd week of S2. But I'm in total agreement that pvp takes way more skill than raiding and is a lot more fun. Especially due to the lack luster TBC raid content. Old raid content (Onyxia, BWL, AQ40, Naxx) was just as fun as pvp imo and I liked both equally. Can't really say that anymore.
Nov 9th 2007 4:31AM I have played an affliction lock at 70. I literally would just run around in circles and spam 3 instant cast dots, tab target, spam 3 instant casts, tab, rinse and repeat. And you can do it forver since you never run out of mana. That's another OP thing about warlocks. They can just spam lifetap and dot dot dot. Lifetap also needs to be adjusted. They should get an increased damage taken debuff that stacks every time they use lifetap. If you have a healer helping you then you never have to worry about running out of mana ever.
Nov 9th 2007 2:05AM I'm against anything that helps dots. It's the cheapest and most boring method in the game of doing damage. Not to mention overpowered. No class or spec should be centered around dots, especially instant cast ones from range. Have any of you played an affliction warlock? I have. I ran around spamming 3 instant cast dots, tab targetted, cast 3 more instant cast dots, tab targetted, cast 3 more, etc. Next thing I know everyone is dead or almost dead and I'm just running around in circles. In battlegrounds I would have like 36 kills and 4 deaths, do twice as much damage as everyone else around the 500,000+ damage range. It's cheap. It's overpowered. It's not balanced. It takes no skill. Thus it's boring.
I think dot mechanics need a serious revamp to disuade people from using them so much. They should vanish off your target when you die. All should have a lengthy cast time (2+ seconds). They should also vanish if your target gets more than 20 yards away from you. Nobody has respect for dot classes. And it's part of the reason everyone hates warlocks. Who likes going up against a lock and knowing you're going to die no matter what? Even if you "own" them the warlock will fill you up with all the dots he can before he dies so you'll a die few seconds after you kill him. They'll even wait to release so they can watch you slowly die and laugh about it. It's just cheap. Or who likes running past a lock in a BG only to be dotted up and slowly watch your hp get chipped away and when you have to fight someone at the node you were heading to you only have 15% life left? That's just awesome.
So no, I'm against trainable corruption and all instant dots.
Oct 31st 2007 4:14AM You guys are missing the point. Ganking lowbies isn't world pvp at all. Why so many people think it is I have no idea. Those people are pussies who can't cut it in real pvp. What we're talking about is real world pvp. Like SS vs TM and raiding the opposite factions cities. I approve of ganking anyone in cities but camping people 40 levels below you in STV isn't what we're talking about.
Oct 31st 2007 1:05AM Yes it's dead. It's never been very strong in this game besides the early days of SS vs TM. But it's by far the worst it's ever been.
What's killing world pvp:
1) Guards. An excessive amount of guards. Overpowered, instant respawn, invisible, elite guards... They're biggest culprit in making world pvp zero fun. And they just keep adding more and more like the rooftop stalkers to orgrimmar which were completely unnessary. So I feel we're yelling at deaf ears on this issue since the devs seem to love their guards and are adding more and more.
2) Long travel times. It takes about 15-20 minutes to trvael from Ironforge to Orgrimmar. A lot of pvp are turned off by the idea of world pvp and city sieges simply because they know it's too annoying to get the location where all the action is at. First you have to fly to menethil. Then you have to wait for a boat that seems to take forever. Then you have to go to theramore. Then you have to fly to ratchet. Then you have to RUN through the barrens. Then you have to run through durotar. Then you finally get to the front of orgrimmar. That takes a while. During the SS vs TM days you just flew to SS and started fighting as soon as you got off. So if you had an impulse to kill some horde you could just get on the hyp and melt face right when you land.
3) There's no effort from the devs part at all to encourage world pvp. They actually go out of their to make it a pain it seems. They made shattrah co-ed and didn't even add a dueling area. And we share the same banks and factions ffs. And there used to be dishonorable kills. Atleast those don't matter anymore.
4) Long graveyard runs for attacking players. It takes you 5 minutes to run back to your corpse. It just really annoys you after a few deaths. To use the SS vs TM example again, if you died all you had to do was run across a couple of fields, rez, get your health back up with some food or a bandage and you were back in the battle. When you're attacking orgrimmar and die you have to run across the entire zone. And it's a winding canyon you have to run through so you can't turn on autorun and go make a sammich or something. Might not sound like a big deal but it really takes the fun of the experience.
5) Flying mounts. People can just fly away now...
They just put zero effort into making world pvp and city rumbles fun. Only thing they did was the zone pvp objectives which are all totally lame.
Solutions to these problems:
1)Drastically reduce the number of guards in cities. Get rid of the instant respawns as well. If you kill a guard it shouldn't respawn a second later. It should remian dead for 5 minutes atleast. Get rid of the summoned guards. I attack someone in the "the drag" in orgrimmar and a shop keeper npc yells something and 4 orgrimmar lvl 65 grunts apear out of nowhere and start beating on me. If you want to protect people from griefing then make the vendor npcs immune to player attacks and since you're not flagged when you're in your own city then you don't have to worry about being ganked unless you invite world pvp onto you like remaining flagged 24/7 (like I do). Get rid of all these elite guards. There's too many. An elite guard per area of the city is fine but not 7-8. The PLAYERS should have to defend their city. Not some npc guards... There's always like 40+ people in a major city at all times so it shouldn't be a problem.
2) Make the opposing cities or towns closer together like SS vs TM. And add more flight paths. If someone wants to engage in an alliance vs horde brawl they shouldn't have to travel for 20 minutes to get there.
3) No more co-ed cities. Make Dalaran alliance only. Give horde their own major city. Maybe even nearby like in a neighboring zone or in the SAME zone to touch on point #2. THAT would be fun. If you're horde and you want to see dalaran then make an alliance character. It's the same way it's always been. You couldn't just walse into Ironforge on your horde character and take a your of the place. You had to roll an alliance character to see how cool Ironforge looked on the inside.
4) Let the 2 factions share graveyards or atleast move the ones for the attacking forces closer to the cities / towns.
5) Well I haven't liked how flying mounts turned out in general. The normal ones are too slow and I wouldn't mind if they were banned from the game. I know that won't happen but maybe you guys can come up with a solution. How about any damage you take while flying makes you fall off? I dunno.
Make this game World of WARcraft again kthxbai
Oct 27th 2007 7:09PM Finally a writer for this site that I like. I have to disagree with your decisions for the warrior class. I play against the top rated players on the ptr on a regular basis and I follow the trends and news of the highest rated pvp quite a bit. It's why I play WoW, for the pvp. Especially the dueling and arena. I've dueled neilyo, affix, seraena, ming, swifte (troll mage not the Night Elf warrior), etc.
Warlocks dominate warriors. Even with the change to MS affecting their drain life abilities. I'm not talking about a warlock in 150 resilience. I'm talking about warlocks in the best gear possible. Only possible execption would be a warrior in full Black Temple resist gear which I don't have.
Despite common knowledge rogues dominate warriors. Hear me out... I'm talking about a warrior in ~pvp~ gear. Not T5-6 tanking gear. In pvp gear there's very little a warrior can do against a rogue rush down. Especially if they have prep. With the buff to hemo almost every rogue is running around with adrenaline rush and prep. A rogue can simply bum rush you with 2 evasions, 2 ARs and 2 sprints while spamming hemo. Only thing a warrior can do is overpower once every 5 seconds. In high end tanking gear the warrior has the advantage though.
I don't know why you listed shamans as a class warriors dominate. It really isn't the case. I dueled a lot of shamans both on my server and on the ptr and elemental shamans will obliterate you with instants alone. A resto shaman will slowly take away your hp and just tank your damage. I'm talking about top shamans btw. Not ones in a few epics. Even enhancement shamans are pretty rough now.
Priests can own warriors as well and so can paladins. Holy paladins own warriors. So do ret and prot pallys. And shockadins.
I know I'm coming off as whiner but it's true. Warriors have always been at the bottom of the pvp chain. Only excpetion to that is arena because of MS.
I wish this game was balanced around 1v1. It's all I care about. The excuses they've made to not do it smell like crap. "We'd have to make all classes exactly the same." No they wouldn't.
Oct 23rd 2007 6:00PM Obviously not. They added TWO new tanking classes. And they're really easy and effective to tank with. Yet it's much much much harder to find a tank after druids and paladins were made overpowered tanks than it was before the expansion when only warriors could tank. All you needed was a warrior back then. Any warrior. All were viable tanks capable of holding aggro and mitigating damage like a champ. And there's always tons of warriors running around on every server cuz it's an extremely popular class.
Now warriors are a joke. Everyone requires warriors to be prot spec these days because arms / fury warriors simply can't generate threat worth a crap now and they get 1 shot by trash mobs let alone hard hitting bosses. And how many warriors do you think like running around prot spec 24/7? Pretty much none. You can't pvp at all. You can barely solo grind because their dps is a joke. All you can do is generate threat. Not a very fun way to play the game...
There's a couple solutions here.
1) Buff warriors mitigation and threat to the way it was before the expansion.
2) Take away the respec fees so a warrior can go spec prot whenever he's needed to tank.
3) Nerf all 5 man instances so even a rogue could tank them.
I'd like choice #2 personally but a combination of all 3 would be ideal.